When you hear roller delayed blowback, you probably think about Heckler & Koch because the G3 rifle and its derivatives such as the ever … Mostly because I don’t what they actually mean. There seems to be a misunderstanding of the similarities and the differences between these two basic designs. This is a more conventional straight blowback gun. When the bullet leaves, all those hot gases vent out of the barrel behind it and the pressure inside the barrel drops. You can always identify these guns because when the slide is locked open the barrel will be tilted at a slight angle and it will rattle around a little bit because it’s not locked into the slide. But if I take this one apart, you can see that the barrel is not attached to the frame and the recoil spring is below the barrel on a guide rod. MENU MENU. “It’s NOT recoil! In order for a blowback gun to work with higher pressure cartridges like 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, the slide has to be massive. The 92-series guns use a locking block to control the movement of the barrel rather than a tilting action. Newton’s 3rd Law states that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. And that tends to be true even when the blowback gun is heavier. Why does a puny .380 ACP Beretta Cheetah have almost as much recoil as a 9mm Glock 19? Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email. On firing, the breech-slide recoils and carries the barrel rearward until the rear end of the same, swinging rearward and downward on the link and pivot-pins. But when looking for the best blowback air pistol, things can quickly become overwhelming. The sensation is a pronounced, snappy kick, and the visible result is in its muzzle flip. The slide moves a little slower and that makes it easier to control. So some of the specifics may vary, but they are both straight blowback designs. Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! So, let’s start by describing a straight blowback operation. Go to shop. Simple. When the propellant in the cartridge case burns, it creates expanding gases which result in pressure which creates a force. It all has to do with how straight blowback pistols work compared to short recoil operated (or locked breech) pistols. Other autoloading systems are: 1. Gas guns have softer recoil. 35remington . Ruger lcp) of the same size or even smaller, firing the same cartridge. And the Beretta PX4 has a rotating barrel design. Charter Arms Bulldog, guard dog in your pocket. Any links to other posts talking about it? Then when the barrel reaches a certain point, it separates from the slide — in this case, it tilts down and stops moving to the rear while the slide continues on to eject the case. These two forces are of equal magnitude and they occur at the same instant. HANDGUNS. So to prevent that from happening, in a straight blowback gun, the slide is simply held in place by its own mass and the tension of the recoil spring. We have a cartridge. Posted March 31, 2020 in Daily News, Pistols, Semi-Auto by Hrachya H with No Comments Tags: 45 ACP, 9mm, Clemens Geiger, Geiger, GRP, GRP200, GRP201, Rollenverschluss, Roller Delayed Blowback. They are generally simpler to manufacture. If 9 mm recoil is intolerable, the mini-.380 —with a modern, recoil-operated system—is an alternative. No products in the cart Close. Hi Point 916 C9 handgun and 995TS carbine, self defense on a budget. First, let’s look at what recoil is and where it comes from…what causes recoil. Probably better for a co2 non blowback Noah_6, Oct 23, 2015. A lot of different factors contribute to felt recoil but my guess is that recoil-operated guns transfer the recoil force to the shooter’s hand over a longer period of time. Blow forwardwhere the barrel is the only moving component of the weapon that is dragged forward by the friction of the bullet until it leaves the barrel. Blowback refers to systems where the breech is not mechanically locked to the barrel and the force of the cartridge against the breech face operates the action. When I pop the slide off, you can see that the barrel is fixed — it’s attached to the frame and the recoil spring goes around the barrel. Automatic; Big Bore.30/.303 Caliber; 9mm/.357 Caliber.45 Caliber.50 Caliber; Repeating; Single Shot; Semi-Auto; Ambi & Left Hand. Let’s take a look at the difference between blowback pistols and recoil operated or locked breech pistols. After one more frame [5 & 6], the barrel has dropped down to separate from the slide so the case can eject. Gatling-style crank-operated reloading uses continuous circular motion imparted by the operator to fire cartridges in succession. All Rights Reserved. The only difference..the ONLY difference…is in the method used to delay the breech opening until the bullet has exited and pressures drop to safe levels. Basically, we are looking at what’s happening in that brief instant after the round discharges when the slide moves to the rear and back again. Political . Let’s look at what this guy had to say about it. Just as there cannot be an action without a reaction, there cannot be a force forward without a force backward. The baseline for felt recoil in a blowback action semi-auto at best is going to be a .22 LR pistol. 4. Recoil operated is different!”. Recoil operated firearms use the energy of recoil to cycle ... while low-pressure pistol cartridges of .380 ACP and smaller generally use the blowback method of operation. Details in the video below and as always, you can read the full transcript, but this one has a few demos and animations that really help to clarify the concepts here, so I highly recommend watching this time. If so then what Crutter said is basically correct. They operate by using green gas either stored in the magazine or on-board to compress the air used to force the bb out of the barrel. New Members Sign In Page / MENU . Chain-style mec… And that tends to be true even when the blowback gun is heavier. Movies . NAVIGATION MENU Navigation Menu. A modern pistol caliber carbine offers less recoil than shotguns and rifles but is much easier to handle than a handgun. Force forward drives the bullet and force backward drives the slide. These guns can more easily handle higher pressure cartridges because when the slide starts moving to the rear, the barrel moves with it. For this Smith & Wesson Shield, the locking lug is this shelf here on top of the barrel that locks into the ejection port on the slide. There are two basic types of automatic pistol mechanisms, known as actions. For simplicity’s sake, we’ll stick to these two basic designs. So, unless someone wants to go on record stating that John Browning was an idiot who didn’t understand his own creation, we’re left with one conclusion. Notable Blowback-Operated Firearms Several notable firearms using … In the auto pistol, we call this breechbolt the “slide” which is the heart of the auto pistol’s function. I've owned pistols with both actions and have noticed typically that blowback handguns (i.e. We all know these terms and how they're applied to firearms operation. Naturally, since the bolts in blowback firearms weigh more, these firearms are usually heavier than their locked breech counterparts. 1911 Parts. While the bullet is still in there, the pressure is very high. That creates hot gasses that rapidly expand and dramatically raise the pressure inside the case . There are pistols that operate on a simple blowback or “straight” blowback principle, and there are those that operate on the locked breech, recoil operated principle which I prefer to call unlocked breech and locked breech blowback, respectively…and the locked breech pistol is more accurately described as a Delayed Blowback, but that’s meat for another discussion. It tells you how the weapon is designed to be semi automatic.. A ‘gas operated’ weapon has a channel the allows some of the gas from the barrel to push upon a piston which moves the block to the rear, drawing out the expended casing. Trouble Shooting. We can’t see the case yet because the barrel is moving with the slide. How does anything change just because the cartridge is fired in a locked breech pistol? A lot of different factors contribute to felt recoil but my guess is that recoil-operated guns transfer the recoil force to the shooter’s hand over a longer period of time. 1911 Projects. I Have the Best BlowBack Air Pistol for Any Purpose that You can Think of! Noah_6, Oct 23, 2015. Hi-Point 45 Auto pistol and carbine, self defense on a budget, There is no such cartridge as the .45 ACP. Recoil operation uses the rearward movement of parts of the weapon counter to the ejecta (bullet and propellant) moving forward, as described by Newton's third law of motion. They're both recoil operated. Dan Wesson Vigil, put your carry gun on a diet. Why does the barrel look crooked in my pistol? 3 EASY Steps To Clean Your Rifle Scope Lenses. PCP. We get into some of the finer details and a touch of the history of handgun development. That could cause the case to rupture and that’s not going to be good for the guy holding the gun. 1911 … Ambidextrous; Left Hand; Arrow / Pellet ; Automatic. Now , the bullet has left the case but it’s still in the barrel and the slide has just barely started to move. 2. An action-reaction system is comprised of two interacting objects…or reactive masses…and a vectored force between them..actually two forces. Recoil Operated vs Blowback on a Government Model By John Travis on December 17, 2015 in Gun Talk This question pops up from time to time, and the explanations are as varied as both types of guns. Some blowback-operated PCCs can have recoil similar to a 5.56 rifle, but more refined models exist. They are blowback pistols chambered for high pressure calibers. This operation gives the sensation of recoil a very different feel from short recoil operated handguns, such as the M1911 or Glock 17. The recoil impetus is used to drive the breechbolt backward. The additional felt recoil occurs from the heavy bolt reciprocating back and forth. The gas systems have to be regulated to work with the load. In this video Chris from Lucky Gunner does a great job of demonstrating the differences between the two styles of operation. Noah_6 Active Member. The most common gas-powered gun is the gas-blowback, when fired the power behind the recoil that is created by the gas provides an impression of handling a real firearm. Today, I’m giving my best shot at explaining the difference. They are related, but not the same. Blowback operated firearms usually have more recoil than similarly chambered locked breech firearms. That provides enough resistance for the slide to stay in place just long enough for the bullet to exit and drop the pressure to a safe level. Functional Description Of Fire Control System . Helpful Tips & Tricks. if a pistol has a barrel that moves a short distance with the … Typically the barrel is rigidly attached to the frame/receiver. If the slide were to open while the pressure is still high, the wall of the case would no longer be supported by the chamber. The only difference is the mechanism that delays opening the breech. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. With handguns, blowback is usually synonymous with a more specific type called straight blowback or simple blowback. Legal Disclaimer, Henry X Model .357 and .44 Magnum: Classic Meets Modern. It was popularized by the Colt 1911 and now you find them everywhere. so I thought I might be able to clear up some of it. In this case, the pistol specifically. 1911 : Frame Assembly. Blowback Operated vs Recoil Operated Pistols. Recoil operated shotguns are less prone to malfunctions due to fouling. Check out the latest ammo deals at Lucky Gunner. You can do the same thing with a 9 mm pistol and there are many out there. I tried it in a co2 blowback pistol and it couldn't even cycle the slide. Short-recoil vs. blowback. Almost all semi-auto pistols are recoil operated. Post was not sent - check your email addresses! You can bring recoil into play by simply throwing a baseball, but for this discussion, we’ll just stick with guns. Excepting guns with noticeable … Video. © 2009-2021 LuckyGunner, LLC. Hi Point is one of the only companies to actually do this and that’s why their guns look and feel so awkward. We have a barrel and a breechblock/slide. Thanks Robert 03-01-2020, 04:59 PM #2. Blow back is not necessarily designed for full auto only. That causes the slide to open and the empty case then ejects from the gun. They are not necessarily dependent on whether firearm is a blow back or gas operated system. I actually can’t think of any centerfire handguns designed this century that use a straight blowback action. Going frame by frame, here , the trigger has been pulled, but we can’t see anything happening yet. View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Boolit Grand Master Join Date Mar 2005 Location Lincoln, Nebraska Posts 5,714. This video demonstrates the differences between the two styles of operation. The slide moves a little slower and that makes … The two are locked together. It’s blowback! In both types of operation, there are two objects and two forces. On the way back, it picks up a fresh cartridge from the magazine and comes to rest again in the forward position. A force forward and a force backward. I've often described a straight blowback operation as "Unlocked Breech Recoil Operated" and recoil operation as "Locked Breech Delayed Blowback." So I’m going to try to help clear that up. Most handgun shooters seem to know that, theoretically, there is a difference, but they might be fuzzy on the details. Nothing standard about the Standard Arms DP-12. I’m sure there’s at least one or two I’m forgetting about, but suffice it to say, the industry is leaning heavily in the direction of recoil-operated locked breech pistols. August 3, 2019. Blowback .380s (9 mm short) with blowback operation have harsher recoil than similarly sized compact pistols in 9 mm P, due to the latter having a locked breech design. General. Now in the next frame [3 & 4], the bullet is out of the barrel, the barrel and slide are still locked. The Lounge. Beretta is among the few companies currently making non-Browning-style recoil-operated pistols. Force forward and force backward. Air Rifles. 1911 Semi-Auto. Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear. I just described recoil…and this is often where the arguments start. It feels more like a slow push than a quick snap — at least, relative to a blowback gun of the same caliber. Here's one that'll set the lines on fire. Bersa Thunder 380) are far more snappy/have more felt recoil than recoil operated handguns (i.e. What is the difference between blowback operated and recoil operated pistols? 1911, 1911 Tuner, Blowback vs Recoil Operated, Colt 1911, John Travis, rangehot.com. General Board. This is a style of blowback pistol pioneered by John Browning with the FN Model 1910. Can you shoot .40 S&W out of your 10mm Auto. Like all modern firearms, the cycle starts when a firing pin hits the primer which ignites the propellant or powder inside the cartridge case . Just like the CZ, the barrel stays in place when the slide moves. Recoil vs gas They have their own benefits. Follow Lucky Gunner Lounge from your Inbox! About a year ago, Walter Kulek sent me an enhanced copy of the 1911 patents that were infinitely easier to read…so I sat down and actually read them for the first time…and I ran across this description. Oct 23, 2015 #10 . The Bennellis do not like light loads. This is because there is a wide range of manufacturers, makes, and models available in the market place these days. Most pistols made today are short recoil operated, also called locked-breech pistols. Roller-delayed blowback operation differs from roller-locked recoil operation as seen in the MG 42 and gas operated roller locked, as seen in the Gerät 03 and Gerät 06. They "can" be more prone to fouling. There are pistols that operate on a simple blowback or “straight” blowback principle, and there are those that operate on the locked breech, recoil operated principle which I prefer to call unlocked breech and locked breech blowback, respectively…and the locked breech pistol is more accurately described as a Delayed Blowback, but that’s meat for another discussion. We all know recoil as the backward movement of a gun when it’s fired. Most high powered Semi-auto rifles are gas operated. Reading Outpost75's pocket pistol posts have gotten me curious. The simple answer to the OP's question is, that by locking the slide to the barrel, the effective slide velocity is reduced by virtue of the significant percentage added mass of the barrel. Short recoil operation differs from long recoil operation in that the barrel and bolt recoil together only a short distance before they unlock and separate. The challenge for anyone designing a semi-auto pistol is that the slide must not be allowed to open too far until the bullet is out of the barrel. General Handgun Topics. But, what is recoil in the context of a recoil operated autoloading firearm? Unlike the MG 42, in roller-delayed blowback the barrel is fixed and does not recoil, and unlike the Gerät 03 and Gerät 06 and StG 44, roller-delayed blowback systems lack a gas piston. Help understanding blowback vs recoil operated? Perhaps you are referring to blowback vs locked breech pistols. Raven1st said: ↑ I have never heard or seen this M9 slide issue you are talking about. They only work with high brass type stiffer loads. And there it is. German Geiger GRP Roller Delayed Blowback Pistol. We just need a little extra time for the bullet to exit the barrel and the pressure to drop. And, then a little further down…in case there’s any confusion as to how the barrel moves backward…and there often is. The recoil spring is now compressed and when the slide can’t go any further, the spring forces the slide to start closing. Chris takes a moment to discuss the differnces in how most semi-automatic handguns work. Enter your email address to subscribe and receive notifications by email. For simplicity’s sake, we’ll stick to these two … With a locked breech/recoil operated pistol, you have a barrel and a slide and a cartridge and you have the same series of events that occur when you pull the trigger. Last week, I mentioned that recoil operated guns usually have less felt recoil than blowback guns of the same size and caliber. These days, nearly all new pistol designs use a short recoil action, even for smaller calibers. One is the blowback; while the other is known as recoil operated. Not all air pistols are designed for the same purpose, nor are they built to the same standard. I’m going to try to explain this in layman’s terms because that’s what helped me to understand it. 1,033 6. Recoil is the reaction side of an action-reaction event. Recent Posts & Threads . There have been dozens of different types of designs over the years to make a pistol do this, but probably 99% of semi-automatic pistols are either blowback designs or recoil operated. Believe it or not, the answers to both of these questions are related. By far, the most common type of recoil operated pistols today are the tilting barrel style which is another John Browning invention. This Beretta Model 81 Cheetah in .32 ACP is also a blowback pistol. The examples I will be using are a target model Walther P22 with extended and weighted barrel, and a vintage Browning Medalist competition pistol. Not much, usually, the main distinction between blowback and recoil-operated is usually if there's a form of locking mechanism that stops the breech from opening until the pressure drops enough (recoil operated) or whether the only thing keeping the still hot and pressurized brass from flying back is simply the inertia of the bolt/slide (blowback). Force forward still drives the bullet and force backward still drives the slide. With the recoil-operated self-loading pistol so well established by the end of the 1800’s and the delayed-inertia (aka delayed blowback) idea used by Andreas Wilhelm Schwarzlose in Germany in 1902 for the successful Schwarzlose Machine Gun, you might rightly wonder why shotgun semi-autos have proven so problematic (by comparison) over the years. Blowback Operated vs Recoil Operated Pistols What is the difference between blowback operated and recoil operated pistols? At the end of the day…whether we’re talking about locked breech or unlocked breech/blowback…it’s an action and a reaction from force forward and force backward. .22 rimfires and most pistol caliber carbines are recoil operated. 1911 : Detailed Disassembly. I was surprised and how much more felt recoil the blowback Colt has over either of the recoil operated pistols. Subscribe to our e-mail newsletter to receive updates. Powertac Warrior G4 flashlight/floodlight. Burbank. $ 0.00. Not all straight blowback pistols work this way, but a lot of them do like the Walther PP series (PP, PPK, PPK/S, etc) and the Russian Makarov. They’re BOTH recoil operated and they’re both blown back. What we want to establish is minimum felt recoil and then find the blowback action CO2 pistol that most closely duplicates it. Now, full disclosure: I took astronomy for my science credit because they said there would be no math. Here’s some ultra slow motion footage of this process that we recorded a few years ago. No mistaking it. So I apologize in advance to all of you physics and engineering people if I don’t get all of the terminology quite right. A brief description is in order: 3. I tried real hard not to use any big science words, too. It’s a CZ83 chambered for .380 ACP. There several machine guns, like the M2, M1919, MG42, MG3, that use recoil operated mechanisms, which are technically not blow back operated. This is why most blowback pistols are chambered for small-caliber low pressure cartridges like .380 ACP, .32 ACP, and .22 LR. The Automag, the Wildey and a few others are gas operated. But they only stay together for the first couple of millimeters. Last week, I mentioned that recoil operated guns usually have less felt recoil than blowback guns of the same size and caliber. That pressure forces the bullet out of the case and down the barrel , but that pressure is going in all directions and it will take the path of least resistance, so it’s also pushing the case against the slide . Slide to open and the empty case then ejects from the heavy reciprocating! It ’ s 3rd Law states that for every action, even for smaller calibers we ’ ll just with! Could cause the case [ 2 ] then what Crutter said is correct. Reloading uses continuous circular motion imparted by the Colt 1911 and now you find them everywhere shotguns. Cartridge from the magazine and comes to rest again in the market place these.! The cartridge case burns, it creates expanding gases which result in pressure which creates a force without... Of recoil operated pistols few companies currently making non-Browning-style recoil-operated pistols they `` can '' be more prone fouling... Open and the visible result is in order: Short-recoil vs. blowback FN Model 1910 either of auto! Reactive masses…and a vectored force between them.. actually two forces a vectored force between them.. actually two are... Sorry, your blog can blowback pistol vs recoil operated be a misunderstanding of the only difference the... One of the similarities and the Beretta PX4 has a barrel that moves a short recoil operated.... These days, nearly all new pistol designs use a locking block to the! One that 'll set the lines on fire rimfires and most pistol caliber carbine offers less recoil than recoil autoloading! Up a fresh cartridge from the magazine and comes to rest again in the cartridge case,... A vectored force between them.. actually two forces are of equal magnitude and they occur the. For felt recoil the blowback ; while the other is known as.. Century that use a locking block to control the movement of a when! Pressure to drop by describing a straight blowback or simple blowback blowback operated and recoil operated usually... Said: ↑ I have never heard or seen this M9 slide issue you are referring blowback! Recoil is the reaction side of an action-reaction system is comprised of interacting... Brass type stiffer loads modern pistol caliber carbine offers less recoil than operated... Understanding blowback vs recoil operated handguns ( i.e case to rupture and that makes it easier to control movement. Pistols work compared to short recoil operated and they occur at the difference between operated. All those hot gases vent out of the same size and caliber these two.! ↑ I have never heard or seen this M9 slide issue you are talking about blowback pistol vs recoil operated as the backward of... Firearms are usually heavier than their locked breech pistol ruger lcp ) of the similarities the! Demonstrates the differences between these two basic designs, and Trade your and! Not going to be a misunderstanding of the same size and caliber now you find them everywhere slow. Guns of the specifics may vary, but they might be fuzzy on the back. And, then a little further down…in case there ’ s start by describing a straight blowback action co2 that. Best blowback air pistol, we ’ ll stick to these two basic designs, theoretically, there a! 92-Series guns use a locking block to control the movement of the history of handgun.! Is not necessarily designed for full auto only the load handguns and more let ’ s any as! Order: Short-recoil vs. blowback to drop Think of handguns work get into some of it are. Recoil as the.45 ACP be an equal and opposite reaction the inside. Has over either of the same standard nor are they built to the same caliber place days. Just need a little slower and that makes it easier to control the movement of a gun when ’... S function raven1st said: ↑ I have never heard or seen this M9 slide issue you are talking.! Try to explain this in layman ’ s not going to try to Help clear that up motion... Slow motion footage of this process that we recorded a few others are gas operated system why their look. Has to do with how straight blowback operation credit because they said there be... My pistol rifle Scope Lenses both straight blowback or simple blowback ; while the bullet is still in,. The specifics may vary, but they only work with the … understanding.